Post 2 – rebuttals and counters
Great post, while I disagree with almost everything you wrote, it is still a great post.
First of all, I believe, you are overestimating difference between 3V3 and 1V1 scenarios. Sure, the team fight requires more coordination and synchronism, but still, in a random encounter, individual character’s physical might and abilities play major role and almost always determines winner.
I admit, I am surprised, that you are concentrating and emphasizing the team fight (3V3) that much, because this scenario is even more favorable for me. According the rules, unless stated otherwise, combatants are in character, because that is the natural state of the character. ( Full definition – The natural state of the character (as opposed to Out of Character or Bloodlusted). If the post specifies 'in character', the replies must take into account the way said character would think and feel about the actions they are taking. In most cases, character's have a set of goals or morals that would not abandon for the sake of a fight - these should be noted in a reply even if the character could easily win without them. Source – Battlefield Terminology. Now as you already said, Armsmaster ( I just notice that I misspelled his name in previous post) suffers from tunnel vision, an unwillingness to compromise and believes in helping the innocent and crushing the villains of Brockton Bay using any means necessary and guess who is his team mate? Marquis, one of the first and most prominent villains in Worm's history, known for his ruthlessness and skewed morals, who according to Marquis Wiki page was a villain in Brockton Bay. Considering Armsmaster’s moral code and unwillingness to compromise, I find it plausible that instead of my team, Armsmaster will go after Marquis and will try to kill him like Punisher did in Civil War.
One might say, that it’s ironic.
Team Worm is more likely to know each other's skillsets and be able to make a plan based off of that information.
A plan, a plan, you say. Having a plan is great but how they can make a plan in mid fight when physically superior opponents are attacking them?
In this scenario, I would expect Armsmaster to set up a smokescreen to obscure vision of your characters who except for Deadpool is unarmed at range.
I have some problems with this scenario. First – how often does Armsmaster uses a smokescreen as an opening move? Even if he does it sometimes, why do you think that Deadpool will allow him to do it? I mean, Armsmaster is slow by comparison and Deadpool has some great speed feats like moving FTE and blitzing three pirates. Even his inferior “clone”, Evil Deadpool can move FTE and can disarm and kill four armed guys before they even can perceive his movement. And Evil Deadpool is slower than the original one. So, not only Deadpool is faster than Armsmaster and your other characters, but he is also a killer, a monster, a criminal, who is willing to kill random opponents. Combine Deadpool’s morals, speed and marksmanship ( see previous post), I believe, Wilson’s superior fast draw guarantees, that he will kill you team before they can even react.
Sure, Deadpool is best suited for range fight, but a smokescreen won’t slow down Nightwing since his mask has a night vision and for ranged attacks he has a hook and throwing rope, so 10 meters distant is not too far for Richard and he can attack from distance
Marquis puts up a bone barrier and burrows underground, typical of his approach to combat.
As we both already agreed, speed of the bone barrier is unqualifiable ( unqualifiable might be too much, but you get my point) and can it ever stopped someone fast enough as my characters?
The Number Man retreats behind a pillar and will provide suppressing fire using ricochets
While the Number Man seems to have good running speed, his feats are still below “the blur” movement my character can achieve and my team is not some kind of honor guard to let Number Man flee. If they see that their opponent is running, they will pursuit him and will try to catch ASAP
I believe the weak point in your team is Deadpool, as he is infamous for jobbing and taking hits that he should not
.
Jobbing
Say whaaaat ?. You just besmirched Deadpool and you do realize, that this besmirchment will not stand, right?
While yes he may open fire immediately, the bone barrier I described before is capable of taking gunfire as Marquis can alter the durability of his bones.
Sure, Marquis can try and create the bone barrier but I still think, that he is slower than my characters and can Marquis’s barrier even block Wilson’s guns? I mean, even his pistols are high caliber. Here he kills two robots and notice, that after shots, how the robot’s torso exploded. I suppose, regular guns cannot do it. Hell, even if Marquis manages to block bullet (which I doubt), Wilson can just use grenades.
I believe Nightwing and Iron Fist are capable of avoiding or even dismantling a surprise attack from underground
Agreed.
Deadpool will just take it due to his overconfidence in his healing factor
Now, this is incorrect. As I already tried to show in my previous posts, unless absolutely necessary, Deadpool tries to avoid damage, because while he is a degenerate, he is not a masoch*st who enjoys pain. It is clear from his bullet timing feats ( see post one) and his fights against Cable, Domino and other characters (see post two).
That scan from Deadpool team up issue #886 is missing context. First of all, that Conan looking dude was an experienced fighter ( he was centuries old) and his black sword (the black tongue) was one of the thirteen cursed blades, which could kill with one cut (excluding Deadpool, because he has HF). Deadpool let himself get impaled, so he could close distance and could grab the sword which in turn gave Iron Fist an opening and chance to one shot the villain.
Deadpool could avoid the attack or sever whatever limb he's latching onto once he realizes he's being dragged underground"
Or he can just jump and avoid Marquis’s attacks. Also, let’s not forget, that Deadpool’s reaction speed comparable to Iron Fist’s.
Iron Fist is kinda over-rated IMO, like in a straight "no ki or claws fight"
Hm, interesting, /u/BlackBloodedLord created similar thread and like you, he also considered Iron Fist to be over-rated.
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u/[deleted]Feb 17 '18edited Feb 17 '18
he loses to Wolverine
Some things to be taken into account :
• No one in your team is as fast as and a skilled as Wolverine.
• This was a sparring match.
• Iron Fist said that he was about his 3, while Wolverine was at his 6. You might say, that Daniel was lying and that we should not take character’s word as a face value. Well, first of all, Iron Fist does not strike me as a character who lies about irrelevant things and a sparring match is not important. Even if we assume, that Iron Fist was lying, that same can be said about Gorgon too and the “I am saving my fight for Logan” part should be considered as a lie. So, Gorgon managed to land only one blow, while Iron Fist managed to tag him four times, which I impressive, because Gorgon is too fast for Wolverine, can blitz Shang Chi and can casually smack Elektra. So Iron Fist performed better than three extremely skilled martial artists against Gorgon which show how skilled and how fast Daniel is.
even Elektra gives him a hard time
Daniel was trying to gather information/interrogate Elektra, while She-Ninja was trying to kill him and Elektra is one of the best martial artist, who has beaten Wolverine, Taskmaster, Lady Bullseye, Bullseye and Daredevil to name few.
I have no reason to believe he could one-shot Armsmaster
Why? Armsmaster does not have speed, skill and durability feats to contend with Iron Fist.
Now on Nightwing, is he even in tier?
Yes, he is. That strength feat is an outlier and outside this one instance, he never demonstrated anything above peak human strength.
his armor is actually bullet proof,
Sure, but his head is exposed and the armor does not negates physical damage. Characters like Raptor, Deathwing, Talon managed to hurt him.
fight, takes what he calls two "superman level" metahumans
I do not know if they are somewhere near to Superman in Rebirth. For example, Snakebite is KO-ed after fall which shows that he does not have great durability and against Mangog, Richard used his knowledge and outsmarted Mangog. Given information, Daredevil can do same.
in a 2v3 situation,
Won’t happen, Deadpool won’t be taken out as easily.
Armsmaster's armor is going to prevent all but the hardest strikes from incapping him
I doubt that. I mean, Armsmaster’s armor durability is mediocre and it won’t protect him from Iron Fist’s punch which can chatter granite pillars, ice, young Spider-man’s stomp does not faze the robot and Parker’s kicks are ineffective against it. So, Danny can really one shot Armsmaster, since he is not fast enough and durable enough to match Iron Fist.
The Number Man is going to apply pressure,
No one is going to give him enough time to help his teammates because he will be busy with his opponent.
unless your characters are actual bullet timers,
Daniel Rand-Kai is a bullet timer and same can be said about Wade Wilson. While Richard does not have any clear bullet timing feats, he still fought and danced around Grifter, exceptional marksman and from time to time, he avoids gunfire from multiple enemies.
But, question is – are your characters bullet timers?
In short, Deadpool gets incapped quickly because of his overconfidence and constant jobbing, then Nightwing and Iron Fist get worn down
As I said multiple times, it is unlikely to happen.
That is a feat with him as Defiant, which is not being considered in the context of the Tourney
Did not know that. Thank for information.
Armsmaster is slow by comparison, and has to rely on skill and his above average physicals,
So, Armsmaster is slower than my characters and arguably has comparable physicals to my team. And can you post some of his feats? My characters have some solid skill feats. In post one, I outlined Iron Fist’s training and his status, Wade Wilson is also a near-incomparable hand-to-hand combatant and master of virtually every firearm and bladed weapons and some of his skill feats includes beating Batroc the leaper, Crossbones, the Cat, Stryfe, Domino to name few. And Richard has fought some of the best fighters in DC, including Batman, Bronze Tiger, Lady Shiva … I believe, that even in skill, Armsmaster is below my team.
To summarize our argument so far:
• While in character, it might be argued, that Armsmaster will try to kill Marquis, since the latter is one of the greatest villain, while Armsmaster is a hero, who is unwilling to compromise and only believes in punishing evildoers. On the other hand, Iron Fist and Deadpool have worked together and they know what they are capable.
• My characters are faster and still I do not see any argument, how the Worm team can avoid Deadpool’s rapid fire. It might be argued, that Wilson’s first move will drop some of your characters, especially Armsmaster and Marquis. Marquis can create a bone barrier, but we do not know how fast he does it ( the laser feat is unqualifiable) and unless he has bullet timing feat, I do not believe, that he can block Wilson’s shots.
• Your characters does not have high durability. Marquis’s only have a minor healing, Armsmaster’s armor is low tier with no piercing/slashing resistance and it is not durable enough to tank multiple punches from Iron Fist. The Number Man does not have feat to suggest that he can tank bullets or knifes…
• My characters are more agile and has better overall feats against named and skilled characters.
• Your are overestimating Deadpool’s willingness to take damage. Sure, he gets tagged, but he still tries to avoid attacks and considering your characters speed, it will be hard for them to tag Wade.
• What I have not seen from your characters : enough combat speed to suggest, that they can match my trio. Enough Durability ( expect maybe Marquis) to show, that they can take multiple chi fueled attacks, bullets and regular kicks.
• While The Number Man has interesting power, he is still too slow and most likely will get blitzed, not to mention, that my characters have dealt with opponents, who have precognition.
• Since my team has speed, strength, durability and skill advantage, I assume, that the trio would win.
BTW, did you see Iron Fist vs Marquis part?
EDIT: For some reason, my post does not shows Iron Fist vs Montroid, so here is a scan where Iron Fist destroys the robot's head.
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u/[deleted]Feb 17 '18
/u/Foxxyedarko tagging just in case you did not receive notification.
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u/FoxxyedarkoFeb 17 '18
This one's a little rushed, I apologize in advance.
Interesting, interesting. I've reviewed all of your responses, quite the debacle.
I want to address the Armsmaster issue first, in Worm there's this thing called the unwritten rules, explained by Skitter here:
The code has been there since the beginning. If a bigger threat shows up, we band together. We don’t distract each other with attacks or murder attempts, we don’t take advantage of the situation to f*ck with civilians. The truce is there for a reason, and it has weight because everyone knows that they can’t handle the trouble that gets express-delivered to their doorsteps when they’ve defied it.
co*ckroaches 28.5
Under certain circ*mstances heroes and villains will work together. In the Leviathan attack on Brockton Bay both the Protectorate and the various villain groups of Brockton Bay worked together to try and fight it off. This similar situation recurs with the Slaughterhouse 9, the Echidna situation, and various other scenarios that occur where something bigger than their minor squabbles will cause them to work together.
Now I can't speak for the exact circ*mstances that drew the trio together to fight in this tourney, they can however fight together.
Do you have evidence that Nightwing is willing to work with Deadpool, as you say, a Killer? Sure there has been Iron Fist + Deadpool team ups, but I'm a bit skeptical that Deadpool just murders everyone when he's working with heroes. All the killing scans that I'm seeing have him working solo.
Nightwing has night vision
How will that help against a smoke screen, where the vision is obscured?
Armsmaster lacking feats
Again, he's gone toe to toe with Bitch's Dogs, the previous post mentions they can outpace cars and are 2 tons. He's also survived a hit from Leviathan's Afterimage, for reference here's a few things he can do with that afterimage, it constantly generates water and preserves his momentum, and is like a wall of concrete
Leviathan whipped his tail around, slamming it through the ranks of capes. Immediately after, a lash of water followed in the wake of his movement, cutting down yet another line of gathered heroes and villains.
[...]
Alexandria flew toward Leviathan like a black arrow.
Leviathan charged forward as if to meet the heroine in a head on collision, then stopped abruptly. His ‘echo’, like a model of himself shaped out of water, continued forward with the same momentum he’d had while sprinting forward.
[...]
A third person gravely injured by the crushing flow of water that followed in the wake of his claw, momentum and a lack of attachment to Leviathan’s own body letting it extend well beyond his reach.
Interlude 8
Leviathan’s echo added surprising quantities of water to the battlefield. Every step and movement he made, he filled the space he’d just left with water. How much water did it take to displace something as big as he was? However much it was, he created something like three times that amount when he took a single step forward, when you accounted for the space his body moved through. A hard amount to eyeball, because it had the same momentum his movements had, and some of it crossed great distances as he lunged and clawed his way through the front line of capes.
Extermination 8.3
From the Leviathan RT.
It's difficult to use Armsmaster's speed since he's very reliant on his prediction software, simulations and so on to predict how his opponents will fight, but with it he was able to keep up with Leviathan which suggests he can move at much higher speeds than is normally possible as his armor does augment his physicals, but without that prep he's "slow" but still agile and skilled. I wanted to give some context as to how he can move seemingly out of tier, and this is increasingly more evident when he becomes Defiant with cybernetic augmentation.
Deadpool avoids damage
Come on. He can be sniped. Is hit with arrows. Does he even try to dodge? Seems more like disinterest to me, he's not fazed by gunfire, here he's only briefly interrupted, some of these scans are from the cannon fodder you purport that he just blitzes, and while that may be true, he also uses a less lethal approach enough times to note. Seems inconsistent to me.
Here he kills two robots and notice, that after shots, how the robot’s torso exploded.
How durable are the robots? Marquis' bone plates took fire from Lady Photon's energy blasts, which are very lethal
I'm kind of skeptical of his tiering. Deadpool can apparently outmaneuver Spider-Man, is in a similar strength tier and while he has lost to Daredevil it seems wildly inconsistent to assume he'll act a certain way. Really, how does Daredevil take down a guy who can dodge Carnage's tentacles and can tag Spider-man? Jobbing.
I also want to reiterate my Nightwing comments, I don't see any equivalent scans to Dick Grayson reacting to someone with Wally West's powers 2 for Daredevil, or avoiding helicopter gunfire, or this strength feat but I digress.
But, question is – are your characters bullet timers?
No, and neither is Daredevil, the tier we're basing our characters off of. The Number Man is kind of close with his Math, as he can see attack vectors and things move in slow motion to him.
Now. I do see that it is likely that your team has an overall advantage in combat ability on an individual basis, but tactics and strategy still matter and my points about how my trio can take stronger opponents also stands. It's not in the RT, but The Number Man's fight with three-zero-one-six shows that pretty well, the opponent has invisible limbs that he can grow exponentially, destroy steel and harder substances with. Marquis fights a group of experienced heroes and is able to gain the upper hand, and even discounting Leviathan, Armsmaster is able to overwhelm the Undersiders while outnumbered. Number of opponents, relative strength, this can be worked around with strategy and skill. For a majority? Hard to say.
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u/[deleted]Feb 18 '18edited Feb 18 '18
In Worm there's this thing called the unwritten rules, and under certain circ*mstances heroes and villains will work together.
How was I supposed to know that? Well, at least, I tried, it was worth a shot.
Do you have evidence that Nightwing is willing to work with Deadpool, as you say, a Killer?
It might be a surprise, but Richard has worked with killers before. In Rebirth, he teamed up with Raptor, who is a killer and a criminal. Hell, even one of Richard's best friend, Midnighter, casually kills random attackers, and while I believe Richard disapproves killing, Midnighter's behavior never effected their friendship/partnership.
but I'm a bit skeptical that Deadpool just murders everyone when he's working with heroes.
Now, you must understand in what situation Deadpool is. He is not a hero anymore, he is just a father, who will do anything to protect his daughter. To save Ellie ( Wilson’s daughter), he was ready to kill his best friend, Cable. He even killed Irene Merryweather, who was Wade’s longtime friend. So, I believe, he does not care what Iron Fist or some guy in a mask will think about him. He has a mission and he won’t be slowed down.
How will that help against a smoke screen, where the vision is obscured?
If the night visions fails him, he can just scan surrounding area and I believe, smoke won’t obscure his spectral analysis, not to mention, that Richard has a heightened awareness, not on Iron Fist’s level, but still it counts.
but without that prep he's "slow" but still agile and skilled.
I see, still I think, that he is below my team,
Deadpool avoids damage
And he really does. I believe, there is some misconception about Deadpool’s fighting style. Sure, sometimes he takes damage, but mostly against the fodders, because 1) fodders outnumber him and he is attacked from every direction and 2) fodders cannot match his skills, so he goes mid-tanking to finish them faster which is understandable. I mean, killing 25+ armed guys takes some times if you try to avoid all of their attacks and Wilson is not known for his patience. And the Hydra and the Hand scans only strengthen my argument. But against skilled opponents, he actually uses his skills and agility to minimize damage.
He can be sniped
Sure he can be, And he was not expecting any attack and was catch off guard. This is what happens when Deadpool is aware, that he is hunted.
Is hit with arrows.
Some things to clarify. It was Bullseye who hit Wilson with arrow. Bullseye himself is extremely fast character who can redirect bullets and his marksmanship is off charts. Here he casually kills multiple guys (notice how accurate he is) and does same again. He is so good, that with a bullet ricochet he can tag Solo who is a teleporter. And I have not seen any feat from your team to match Bullseye’s accuracy and speed.
he also uses a less lethal approach enough times to note. Seems inconsistent to me.
In this particular scan, Deadpool was trying to impress his potential employers, some of them were generals and army men who would not be happy if Wilson killed the guards.
How durable are the robots?
Dunno, maybe as durable as a standard LMD, who are bullet prof. (The parietal bones seems to be their weak point ).
Deadpool can apparently outmaneuver Spider-Man
Everyone can outmaneuver and avoid in character Spider-man, including Daredevil or Captain America.
is in a similar strength tier
There is literally no feat to back up this statement, excluding this meme type feat which is an outlier and I have never seen it used on WWW.
while he has lost to Daredevil it seems wildly inconsistent
It is not inconsistent. Deadpool never managed to beat Daredevil in a fair fight and Matt track record against other skilled martial artists is uncanny. Even Iron Fist could not defeat him.
how does Daredevil take down a guy who can dodge Carnage's tentacles and can tag Spider-man?
As I already said, Daredevil can tag Spider-man and Matt can dance around Venom, who is as fast as Carnage.
Dick Grayson reacting to someone with Wally West's powers
Having the Flash’s speed does not mean that she was moving as fast as the Flash. She lacked experience and most likely, she did not have close connection to the speed force.
or avoiding helicopter gunfire
Daredevil has multiple bullet swatting feats. This and this feats are comparable. Not just his reaction speed, but combat speed is also uncanny. He can casually beat Typhoid Mary who is fast enough to do this.
or this strength feat but I digress.
As I said – an outlier.
The Number Man is kind of close with his Math, as he can see attack vectors and things move in slow motion to him.
So does Spider-man, Captain America can see faster than bullets move and both of them have better speed feats than the Number Man, but still they are not untouchable and peak humans, like Iron Fist, Daredevil or Deadpool managed to fight them.
